ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

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ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  goswser on Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:46 am

This analysis is very specific, as it pertains to a certain matchup, map, and positon; however, I feel that this situation occurs enough that it warrants discussion. In these particular spawn positions, overlords will reach each player's opponent's mains before a normal speedling timing. Most often, this results in both players opting for a hatch first. Both players, upon seeing a drone exit their opponents main, will assume the hatch first by default, and keep the overlord over the main hatch to see if his opponent is going for roach or speedling, based on the gas timing, because it will not have to leave the main until the pool finishes and a queen is building. Thus, this allows a creative player to expand to the gold base instead of the natural expansion. Obviously, the opponent cannot allow this player to control the gold for a long amount of time, or the resource advantage will overwhelm. Expanding to the gold does not slow your speedling/roach timings down in any way at all; you will still have speedling/baneling/roach at the same time as the opponent. Because he cannot allow you to control the gold, he has to all in. And because he must all in, you can produce enough to defend it, and then win the game. The added income garnered from the several drones at the gold easily allows you to produce enough to stop an all in, or to strengthen any roach/speedling all in you yourself do. Controlling and defending your gold is made easier by the map architecture, in that you can easily control the watchtowers if you have the gold base, thus giving you total information on the opponents troop movements in time to intercept and react. Gold first in these spots, in my experience, is basically an instant win.

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  DarthCaesar on Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:57 am

While other matchups are important, I believe (unless something has changed), that this forum focuses on Terran and Terran matchups.
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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  Leargle on Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:00 am

For the purposes of the application, I don't think the specific matchup matters a whole lot. Would appreciate a reformatted version though, not too big a fan of the wall of text :X

Regardless, I like that analysis. I've seen a lot of funny strategies in metal based off fast expanding to the gold. Shit, I've even seen masters level play where a terran player will lift his main to the gold. In general, I like this thought process-- put yourself in a situation where the opponent has to either all in or give you a huge advantage.

Could you possibly expand this thought to other matchups/situations?

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  PatouPower on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:03 am

DarthCaesar wrote:While other matchups are important, I believe (unless something has changed), that this forum focuses on Terran and Terran matchups.

I am sure we are gonna talk a lot more about Terran and Terran matchups than the other races, but I don't think this means we can't do researchs on them either.

@OP:

I like the idea of expanding to the gold. This isn't too risky since Zergs don't have a lot of tools to harass against other Zergs, and it can give you a big advantage. I've also seen some Zergs do that in PvZ, particularly when he tries to deny your expansion. Most players will simply not think about scouting the gold base, and will expect an all-in instead. Controlling the Xel'Naga tower to deny vision of the gold shouldn't be too hard with zerglings either.

Also, next time, try to format your text in different paragraphs; it's a lot more pleasant to read and easier to understand the points you are making.

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  balo on Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:37 pm

I'm not sure if scouting gold would be hard since overlord will check natural and see if there is a hatchery or not.

I think this would be very hard to pull out because of mutliple places u have to defend. It means that queens and static defense wont be that usefull which makes any kind of all ins/agression really hard to stop.
New trend in zvz as a followup to 15 hatch is to go 17 gas and make asap roach warren. but it also would be alot less effective since roaches in low numbers are not effective vs lings and u wont be able to regroup ur roach forces when ur hatcherys are so far away.

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Post  goswser on Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:43 pm

Thank you for all your responses! If I went roaches and tried to defend with queens and static defenses, it would be very difficult to defend the gold. However, if I go speedling/baneling, defensive baneling allows the player with the gold to defend easily, especially since he can control watchtowers. If you see your opponent going roach - you go roach. He can't push with roach safely until he has a decent amount of them, and if he waits and tries to drone and get roaches - the gold base kicks in and you win.

Also, typically in zvz, although he will realize quickly that you took the gold, it isn't instantly. Generally players will leave the overlord over the other players hatchery until a pool is finishing and he knows the geyser timing the other player has, to tell when his speedlings will finish. After this is determined, he will send it to the natural, and at this point, your gold is finishing and your tech is at the same point as his.

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  everyday on Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:11 pm

While other matchups are important, I believe (unless something has changed), that this forum focuses on Terran and Terran matchups.
Nothing in the "What this forum is about" post indicates that. It seems short-sighted to restrict the two-thirds of the community that does not play Terran to only gaining deeper insight about one-third of their matchups, anyway; allowing this forum to discuss all matchups also increases the chance of the discussion producing strategic insight..

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  Laggy123 on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:07 pm

I normally go 14pool 14 gas and then expand at 22 because you get a 300mineral surplus before your larva pop. I'd imagine that the reinforce period would be far too long to hold this off at least until Speedlings, along with if you decide to transfer drones there you'll be at a mineral deficit for a while and if you decide to build drones you'll most likely lose to a player doing a Speedling all in. How well does it handle against these two situations?

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  Leargle on Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:50 am

I probably play zerg at a much lower level than you guys (mid diamond, its an offrace) but when I ZvZ I prefer to do a speedling expand at 19. Even in cross spots I'm not comfortable with hatch first. What does hatch first die to in ZvZ cross spots?

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

Post  Laggy123 on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:02 pm

In cross spots it's actually fairly safe if you sim city, most people once they see a fast expand will stay 1 base and do an all in with pure ling or ling bling. I normally cut drones pretty early around 17-18 and make lings to defend any all-in. When their all-in fails they try to get back in the game by expanding this is where fast expanding capitalizes on benefits, you have 2 queens which you can safely make pure drones after you deflect the all-in. The way to win in these situations is to know when you are waiting too long, there is a period of where you can get further ahead but as the game goes on it starts depending on to many factors that can blur out your early lead.

So a quick overview: 15 hatch on cross spots delay gas get pool earlier to defend against early lings. Cut drones to make mass ling. Sim city to deflect banelings, until their all in comes do not make drones. Once defended and you see them making their hatchery apply pressure with left over lings from the defense (try to snipe the hatchery) and pump drones really hard and transition into roaches with lair tech. Wait for a big number of roaches around 20-30 if your macro is perfect they should have significantly less anywhere from 10-20.

Keep in mind that all this is if they all in you after seeing a 15 hatch.

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Re: ZvZ Top/Bottom Spots Metalopolis

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